Cities in Motion 2

[Solokow]

Wie der werte Canton hier (http://www.si-games.com/forum/showpost.php?p=826970&postcount=67) bereits angekündigt hatte, ist Cities in Motion 2 in Vorbereitung.

In einem kurzen Video wird auf die Neuerungen eingegangen, wobei die Grafik mich noch erschauern lässt.

http://youtu.be/Rv9WNBoPAok

[clone]

Die Grafik eines Open-World-Spiels wie eben CiM, Sim City oder andere wird immer als aller letztes aufpoliert. Ordentliche Spielgrafik wird man final wohl eher ab März oder April sehen.
Ich freue mich auf CiM 2, wobei die Neuerungen bisher eher dürftig sind.

[Solokow]

Ihr habt recht - ich hoffe es zumindest.

Was die Neuerungen betrifft, finde ich das nun dynamische Städtewachstum eine ganz entscheidende Veränderung. Mal sehen was noch alles kommt.

[smokey]

Ihr habt recht - ich hoffe es zumindest.

Was die Neuerungen betrifft, finde ich das nun dynamische Städtewachstum eine ganz entscheidende Veränderung. Mal sehen was noch alles kommt.

Neben dem Städtewachstum finde ich auch das komplett andere Zeitverhältnis (Tag-/Nachtsystem mit Rush Hour) mit bestimmbaren Zeitplänen der Strecken doch eine enorme Neuerung, was das Spiel dann doch schon anders spielen lässt.

Ich empfinde diese Dinge eher als das Gegenteil von dürftig.

[Solokow]

Seit der Ankündigung hat sich doch einiges getan. Da das Spiel mit Unity 3 entwickelt wurde, besteht die berechtigte Hoffnung, dass es auch auf Mac bzw Linux erscheinen wird. Eine Sammlung der bisherigen Developer Diaries



Cities in Motion 2 –Big changes! – Developer diary #1

Greetings from Finland! It’s time to kick off our series of developer diaries for mass transit simulator Cities in Motion 2. CIM2 is the sequel to the popular Cities in Motion, which was released back in 2011. The development of the game didn’t stop there, though. Since we launched the original CIM, we’ve released many cities and features as both DLC and free updates, such as the newest expansion Cities in Motion: London, which was just released on November 20th.

However, working with our in-house technology had its limitations, so we decided to change things up. To be able to take Cities in Motion to the next level, we started development in Unity 3 and we couldn’t be happier with the results!

Cities in Motion 2 will introduce new features, like multiplayer game modes, day and night cycle, timetables and dynamic cities. The player's actions in building the transportation network will affect how the city grows, with affordable transportation spawning middle class housing and work places, and more expensive and delicate choices bringing in demanding business people. Players will have many different types of vehicles to choose from and can now also build roads with bus lanes. Tackling the rush hour by managing transportation timetables and meeting the needs of the citizens are one of the key elements of building a successful and efficient network.

The participation of the CIM community has always been important to us. With CIM2 we hope to answer to the requests and suggestions made by our fans for Cities in Motion. We’ve improved the game in many aspects, for example the camera controls. Now you can see the entire city by zooming out!

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=68108&d=1353572924
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=68109&d=1353572924

There’s still a lot of work to do, and we hope to hear your feedback! We will run a closed beta test later on this year, follow the Paradox Forum for more information: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...es-in-Motion-2

In the next installment of the CIM2 developer diaries, our designer Karoliina Korppoo will tell you about the basic vehicle types and, later on, more about the different features and design choices made. Henri Haimakainen, our level designer, will write about creating cities with the map editor that will be included in the game, allowing you to create your cities of your own.

We hope you enjoy the ride with us!


Quelle: Cities in Motion Developer Diary #1 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?1181-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96Big-changes!-%96-Developer-diary-1)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – Basic Vehicles – Developer diary #2

The heart of Cities in Motion is the vehicles. Big and small, fast and slow, every vehicle is unique and gives its special flavour to the game. With Cities in Motion 2, we have put effort to making the vehicles better balanced and to make sure that every one of them is useful from the start to the end. The basic vehicles featured in Cities in Motion are bus, tram and metro—just like in the first game.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69581&d=1355737376

Buses are the tireless workmen of the streets, they run on gasoline and are very dependent on other traffic. The basic concept is that the longer the route, the smaller and faster the bus is what you should choose for it. Large, slow buses are excellent for short inner city routes with lots of passengers, and tiny, fast vehicles work well in less crowded situations.

The greatest new addition to building bus lines are waypoints. You can now more accurately choose the route your buses drive without placing any extra stops that need maintenance and might disrupt the flow of traffic. Waypoints are a great way to guide your vehicles away from heavy traffic and create optimized routes.

Another improvement is bus lanes. You can choose a road type with special bus lanes to keep your vehicles away from traffic jams. Bus lanes have a maintenance cost, but they can really pay off in dense city center traffic.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69583&d=1355737376

Trams are more modern, sleek, and naturally need rails to run on. As such, they are excellent for city centers and can benefit greatly from some road types, like avenues with a special area for tram tracks away from other traffic. With the new, bigger map sizes we expect trams to perform even better than before since there can now be much larger cities created and, thus, bigger city centers.

Metro tracks have lots of new features. Instead of three underground layers, you can now build as deep or high as you like. The depth or height affects the cost, naturally, since it’s more expensive to build very deep or very high than near the ground surface. With this change, you can now have more lines without intersections and not make the underground too crowded. The metro system is still being polished, we want to make it’s very flexible but still easy to use at the same time; it’s a challenge!

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69582&d=1355737376

While there are not as many vehicles as the first game—there are more vehicle types, though—we are working hard to make the vehicles that are included are as balanced as possible so that every vehicle will have its uses throughout the game. When not in use, vehicles reside in depots and receive maintenance to keep them in top shape. If your line schedule is too tight, vehicles don’t have the time to receive enough maintenance in the depot and might experience more breakdowns. You should also keep an eye on the maintenance personnel’s wages – the better the pay, the more efficient the workers are — this way you can either have vehicles stay longer in the depot or have higher wages for the maintenance personnel and thus have more operating time from the vehicles. It’s your choice!

There are naturally more vehicle types in Cities in Motion 2, so stay tuned for the next developer diary on vehicles!


Quelle: Cities in Motion Developer Diary #2 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?1216-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-Basic-Vehicles-%96-Developer-diary-2)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – Planning the levels – Developer diary #3

So, maps, huh? We all love them, we want to make them, and we want to have fun making them.
*
Designing maps for Cities in Motion 2 has been a different experience compared to the original Cities in Motion. Due to the increased efficiency of the new technology we’re using for CiM2, we are able to create maps that are almost four times as large as the original game’s maps.
*
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70216&d=1356685702
Here is a comparison image to show the difference of map sizes between Cities in Motion and Cities in Motion 2. The London map is scaled from a large map to an XL-sized map to show the difference and to illustrate that even only a part of a map in CiM2 covers as much area as a full-sized single map in CiM.
*
In the original CiM, we had maps spanning over 3 x 3 km in size. CiM2 introduces maps that are roughly 8 x 8 km, bringing players new possibilities to tackle even the biggest metropolis. This time around the maps can have vast mountain ranges and large differences in height; you can build a sprawling city in the valley and have smaller suburban areas located higher up on the hills and mountain slopes.
*
The design process and idea with the maps in CiM2 was to create a region that would accommodate all the maps, a geographical section so to speak. Instead of designing individual maps that float in nothingness, we ”connected” the maps so that they can be seen as part of a bigger whole. For example, a river that can be seen coming from the edge of one map actually continues in the other map where it originates from a lake. This can be seen in the campaign window while selecting which city to choose, it creates a sense of continuity where the world is a tangible entity instead of separate pieces.
*
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70217&d=1356685728
This image illustrates the region-based design idea. The maps form a complete area that creates a sense of continuity, ”there is a world outside the borders of a map” so to speak.
*
The amount of maps present in the game is due partly to the campaign layout and also because of the idea to introduce different kinds of geographical designs where the different elements (water, hills, mountains, and so on) play different roles in making up the layout of each city. It was clear that the campaign needed a central city, the big metropolis that is the ultimate challenge. The other maps formed around it quite naturally—there is the mountain area, the lake region, and the coastline. Altogether, the five maps fit nicely with what we wanted to have in regards to the geographical ideas we originally came up with.


Quelle: Cities in Motion Developer Diary #3 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?655125-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-Planning-the-levels-%96-Developer-diary-3)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – More vehicles – Developer diary #4

In addition to buses, trams and metros, we selected trolley buses and water buses for the Cities in Motion 2 lineup. Water buses were a part of the original Cities in Motion, but never worked as well as we would have hoped. With the sequel, many problems have been fixed to make them a valuable part of any public transport system. Trolley buses were added in an expansion, but we felt they should be a permanent addition, due to the easy way to expand the bus system with them and how well they easily fit into any bus system.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70847&d=1357818738

Trolley buses
Trolleys use the same stops and depots as buses, but run on electricity, so they need overhead wires to operate. To ensure rising petrol costs won’t topple your company, you can build trolley lines. Trolley buses are preferred by citizens in central areas because of their quieter operation and high capacity. Still, on long routes with fewer passengers, like ones lines going heading to the outskirts of cities, buses are still unrivalled.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70848&d=1357818740

Water buses
Water buses are very useful since many maps have large bodies of water. They are a much cheaper way to get over water than building a bridge, and naturally you get more profit. Water buses use depots like all vehicle types, and have piers where they pick up passengers. To tweak your water bus routes, you can use waypoints – a feature that was heavily requested after the original game released.

As I mentioned in the previous post, balance is very important. All vehicle types can use waypoints, so it is easier to get the most out of your vehicles and avoid places where traffic jams occur. You can divide the city into different zones and tweak prices for tickets from one zone to another to make longer lines more easily profitable. Like I earlier said, depots are used to store the vehicles when they are not on a route and to keep them in good condition. What is important is that many lines can use the same depot, so you can keep the costs down by using the same vehicles on many lines. For example, you could have a line that services runs during the daytime and another that only works on runs at night, and use the same vehicles for both.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70849&d=1357818741



Quelle: Developer Diary #4 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?657222-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-More-Vehicles-%96-Developer-diary-4)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – Making the levels – Developer diary #5

The variety of maps is an important part of Cities in Motion 2. One of the key ideas was to include a whole new map editor that would be powerful enough to create remarkably diverse maps. Moving away from the grid-based maps allowed us to have more natural-looking maps with hills, valleys and mountains – and the curvy roads to fit them.

Landscape
In Cities in Motion 2, landscaping is more flexible than ever before. The vastly upgraded mechanics allow us to create and modify the maps and achieve more realistic, natural areas. Maps can now feature high mountain ranges, lakes and rivers of different shapes and sizes, and thick forests (with various different trees) to name a few.

When designing the maps for CiM 2, the idea was to come up with different themes for the maps. The flexible toolset we have made it possible to do just that. The bigger maps could include a lot more nature as well as a huge city, making it possible to sculpt a mountain lake where the city circles around between the mountain tops.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71767&d=1358845628

Roads
Perhaps the most important new feature in making the levels are the roads. For the first time, we are able to create truly freeform roads. The roads are now more realistic and make real-life city designs possible. Also, the new road types help make the maps more interesting, both visually and game design-wise. Bus lanes and one-way streets give the players more options and encourage strategic thinking when laying lines. For example, it is now possible to create a New York one-way street layout of Manhattan. Also, making bus lanes speeds up player vehicles so they can move more freely through traffic. The mechanics also make it possible to create some wild highway junctions and ramps!

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71768&d=1358845668
One-way streets

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=71769&d=1358845681
Bus lanes.

Roads also partly determine what kind of buildings are generated in a given area. Bigger roads, like avenues and multi-lane streets, typically generate buildings for the heart of your city, such as offices, while regular one or two-lane roads tend to favor smaller, suburban buildings such as tenements and detached houses. So, when laying new roads during play, the player can influence how the cities will develop over time. Obviously, the overall collection of buildings in an area can push the development of that area in a certain direction as well.

Buildings
Buildings in CiM 2 are divided into 10 groups, ranging from city center buildings to leisure, shopping, residential, industry, and so on. These buildings house different kinds of people and jobs, and affect how their surroundings develop when new buildings appear in the neighborhood. Of course, there is overlapping so that the transition from one area to the next is smooth and natural.

The second largest part of making the levels after the roads are laid down is the placing of buildings. Due to the dynamic nature of the game, the process is a bit different than in the prequel. The city's key areas are built by hand-placing each building manually, and when the first pass is done, the rest of the buildings are generated. Then, a second pass is made to inspect and enhance the generation process. This way, the maps stay consistent when the player starts building their network and making changes to the city through the influence of their lines and while building additional roads.

Quelle: Developer diary #5 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?659967-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-Making-the-levels-%96-Developer-diary-5)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – Multiplayer Mode – Developer diary #6

One of the biggest differences between the first and second Cities in Motion is the multiplayer mode. The first CiM had no MP and many players requested it, so we put effort into making it a reality in the sequel. Generally, multiplayer modes are not very common in simulation games, as they tend to be single player games with the goal of “beating the game”. We felt that simulation can benefit from multiplayer, though, and wanted to make sure there would still be that “game beating” aspect included even in the multiplayer mode. As such, we created two types of MP modes: co-op and competitive.

In co-op, you can play with up to three friends and all work at the same company on the same, big map. Building a huge network is much easier and more fun with friends. Large maps with many city centers offer enough room for many players to work simultaneously.

Along with the co-operative mode, we designed a competitive mode for players to pit their skills against one another. In competitive mode, you can choose the objectives using built-in sliders. Options to choose from include a time limit, if you feel like you want to play a fast paced game, and/or a company value target. If you have both objectives, the game will end when either is reached. You can also play with only one objective or no objectives at all, if sandbox play with friends is your thing. Team play is available for both modes, and co-operative and competitive are for up to six players.

The main goal in competitive mode is always to try and do better than your opponents’ company. In team play, you work with your team through a team chat (or on a voice chat) to choose what everyone will do. The maps have many city centers, so you could assign one to each player, or have one disrupt the opponents while other build elsewhere. Also, division by vehicle type would be interesting.

We hope to see many of you having fun with the multiplayer mode once the game is out! It's a great improvement, don't you agree?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=73348&d=1360328817


Quelle: Developer Diary #6 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?665863-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-Multiplayer-Mode-%96-Developer-diary-6)

[Solokow]

Cities in Motion 2 – The Map Editor – Developer diary #7

The map editor in Cities in Motion 2 has been redesigned from the ground up. The familiar terrain tools are still there, but this time they are made to serve building bigger maps. Along with those tools also come a set of new features as moving away from the grid-based map layout has presented new possibilities for level editing.

Landscaping is more flexible than ever with the terrain tools, you can use them to modify the landscape by raising and lowering, smoothing and flattening it. There are several new brushes that allow you to create features that look natural and blend in well with the rest of the landscape–modifying the terrain first with a round brush and then adding detail with an uneven brush. Creating interesting looking mountains and shorelines has never been so easy and fun!

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74444&d=1361365452&thumb=1
Creating the large features first...

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74445&d=1361365462&thumb=1
...and then adding in the small details.

The terrain tools also include a versatile random generator for the landscape. There is a set of filters that can be adjusted to create a completely unique map base in no time. Want a map with multiple islands? Just tweak the options and you are set! Maybe more terrain and less water with smoother hills? Done! These filters allow for quick map generating and work as a wonderful base to build whatever one wishes. And afterwards, you can tweak and modify the terrain manually as much as necessary.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74446&d=1361365471&thumb=1
Random generated map base.

But what are maps without the cities? Empty maps, that's what! So, now that we have dynamic cities in CiM 2 we also have some new features that come into play when creating them. The new road tool is the biggest change in the map editor. The grid-less map layout is most visible when creating roads since there are no barriers in creating different shapes. The roads are as organic as the rest of the terrain and they are also automatically propped for your convenience. You don't need to change between different road tools, such as underpasses, bridges and whatnot, when creating your network of roads as the road tool automatically blends it all together so that you can concentrate in building the actual network instead of trying to figure out how to connect that bridge to this road. Also, now that the map editor handles most of the menial tasks for you, you can get deeper into designing the flow of the road network using the various types of roads.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74447&d=1361365492&thumb=1
The road tool interface. Here you can select what type of road you want to build from a set of different road types and customize what features it will have, i.e. bus lanes, sidewalks and parking spaces. You can also add and remove lanes.

It is possible to place each and every building manually if that is what you wish but considering the size of the maps (we are talking roughly 4 times bigger than the largest maps in CiM 1!) it can become quite the heroic deed. However, in addition to the manual city building, there is also the possibility to generate the buildings. This is especially handy when testing what you have built so far, so you can see how the city develops and changes, how the road network manipulates the city, and so on. Quite possibly the best way is to combine both manual building placing with the generator tool, that way you can control the key areas of the city and let the generator do the rest. Of course, you can go back to detail work afterwards.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=74448&d=1361365686
The building/prop tool. Here you have all the buildings divided into categories. You can also find individual props there should you need to use them. The "Iteration count" slider is used with the "Generate buildings" function. It determines how many passes it makes while placing the buildings in to the map.

There are multiple ways to use the map editor, each serving a different purpose. You can concentrate on the big picture with the help of the generating tools or you can dive into the deep end and take the hero's quest to build everything manually. The choice is yours.

QuelleDeveloper Diary #7 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?669215-Cities-in-Motion-2-%96-The-Map-Editor-%96-Developer-diary-7)

[Der junge Fritz]

wer es ausprobiert hat, möge berichten!

[H34DHUN73R]

Wir haben CiM 1 ganz gerne gespielt und warten ebenfalls auf Erfahrungsberichte :)

[Solokow]

Solange sie keinen Linux Support bringen, kaufe ich es nicht mehr. Daher: auch ich warte auf Erfahrungsberichte!

[clone]

Das erste Video, das wir gefunden haben:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfyS-aiKd04
Zeigt aber kaum etwas vom Spiel.
Kritik und Bugs kann man sich hier (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?740-Cities-in-Motion-2&) durchlesen. ( Offizielles Pdox Forum )
Größter Kritikpunkt: Die Kamera bewegt sich nicht, wenn man mit der Maus in die Ecken fährt, sondern nur mit WASD oder STRG+Maus in die Ecken. Zweiter großer Kritikpunkt: Menüs sind fummelig, winzig und nicht gerade optimal, aber da sind wir wohl sowieso einiges gewöhnt. Aber hier soll es auch richtige Bugs geben.
Es gibt wohl einige Grafikfehler.
Laut Zeugenaussagen soll das Spiel dafür auf einem 4 jahre alten Mac ohne Murren laufen. Könnte also auch mit Linux laufen, von Mac zu Linux ist es ja nicht so weit wie von Windows zu Linux.
Multiplayer ist bisher beinnahe unmöglich, weil der Serverclient so verbuggt ist, dass man keinem Spiel ( außer eigenen ) beitreten kann.
Für mehr muss man wohl auf die Lets Plays warten... so ein Mist.

[sato]

Spielt hier auch jemand Cities in Motion 2? Im Paradox Bereich gibt es dazu ja keine Abteilung

Würd mich gerne mal Austauschen zu dem Spiel:prost:

[Solokow]

Ich warte auf einen Sale! Insgesamt hört man leider eher negatives über das Spiel, kann ein Regent seine Meinung posten?

Der CIM2 Bereich in unserem Forum (http://www.si-games.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24530)

[sato]

ich mach erstmal hier weiter evtl kann ein mod es ja zusammenfassen oder verschieben

ich hab jetzt ungefähr 20h gespielt

was mir zuerst auffiel war das es komplexer ist als der erste teil

teil 1 war mir etwas intuitiver anwendbar

im 2 teil wird man
- oft erschlagen von der masse an gebäuden und daten die man abrufen kann
- von der langsamen zeit manchmal frustriert ( wenn man geschwindigkeit auf maximum macht vergeht ein spieltag in ca 30 minuten auf langsam ist es fast wie echtzeit) weil man auf gehalt wartet
- das bauen von wendeschleifen sehr schwer geworden ist aber nötig wegen den depots
- irritiert von wegen der kunden

ich bau zb ne buslinie auf der nirgendso einer einsteigen will und plötzlich kommen 50 leute von anderen linien und fahren alle gemeinsam den bus irgendwo hin und niemand kann mehr in den bus einsteigen weil an einer haltestelle megastau ist
dadurch hab ich ein paar haltestellen wo das chaos ausbricht und man erst analysieren muss wo die alle hinwollen um ne richtige linie zu machen

wenn man aber erstmal durchblickt macht es dann aber auch so viel spaß wie der erste teil

preis leistung würde ich sagen ist es 10€ wert

allerdings just wo ich diesen thread geschrieben habe bekomme ich eine fehlermeldung und die linien und so bleiben alle stehen und ich kann nur noch ins menü gehen...

steam findet allerdings keinen fehler

[Solokow]

Habt Ihr auch die Erweiterungen? Ich finde es schade, dass es keine gute modding Möglichkeiten gibt.

[clone]

Ich empfand Teil I deutlich besser als Teil II, aber kann nur in Teilen sagen warum, der Rest ist Herzsache:
Keine historischen Städte mehr, sondern seelenlose Phantasiestädte, die Grafik ist realistischer und schöner, sieht aber eben dafür auch seelenloser aus, Teil I hatte seinen eigenen Style.
Man schloss seine Stadt mehr ins Herz, gerade weil es Berlin oder Wien war. Dazu die "historische" Entwicklung von 1920 bis 2000 war wirklich spaßig und spannend.

Depots, bessere Linien, frei gezogene Strecken, spezielle Buslanes, bessere Straßenbahnen usw sind Features, die das Spiel wirklich verbessert haben und den Kern, das Transportgeschäft, deutlich besser machten und im ersten Teil wirklich vermisst wurden. Aber dennoch war Teil eins ein Spiel mit mehr Seele und mehr flow, Teil II habe ich nur vllt 20 Stunden gespielt.

Über DLCs ( die mich bei Teil 1 gut genervt haben ) kann ich nichts sagen und gucke jetzt mal nach Teil 1 Mods.

[sato]

hab keine erweiterungen
für nen neuen bus geb ich kein geld aus =D

gibt übrigens inzwischen auch deutsche videos auf youtube

[Der junge Fritz]

Uns hat der erste teil weit mehr Spass gemacht, bin mit dem 2. nie warm geworden. keine Kaufempfehlung

[sato]

jetzt wo das spiel öfter mal crashed fällt mir auf wie dringlich ein autosave vermisse

[sato]

ich schätz es hat noch niemand den multiplayer ausprobiert? =D

[sato]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=258078706