Boron
09.03.06, 05:46
Wir sind gerade eher zufällig auf den Polenfeldzug gekommen im Dominions-Channel.
Weder ich noch meine amerikanischen Kollegen wollten es erst glauben als einer sagte:
"German tank losses included 217 destroyed and the Luftwaffe lost 285 planes destroyed and 279 damaged beyond repair - about 25% of all German planes in September 1939. "
Wikipedia schreibt aber auch ähnliches:
About 65,000 Polish troops were killed and 680,000 were captured by the Germans (420,000) or the Soviets (240,000). Up to 120,000 Polish troops withdrew to neutral Romania (through the Romanian Bridgehead) and Hungary and 20,000 to Latvia and Lithuania, with the majority eventually making their way to France or Britain. Most of the Polish Navy succeeded in evacuating to Britain as well. German personnel losses were smaller (~16,000 KIA), but the loss of over ~30% of armored vehicles during the campaign was one of the reasons the plans for an immediate attack west were discarded.
Unter Mythen:
The Polish air force was destroyed on the ground in the first days of the war: The Polish Air Force, though numerically inferior and lacking modern fighters, was not destroyed on the ground because combat units had been moved from air bases to small camouflaged airfields shortly before the war. Only a number of trainers and auxiliary aircraft were destroyed on the ground on airfields. The Polish Air Force remained active in the first two weeks of the campaign, causing serious harm to the Luftwaffe as the average Polish pilot was much better trained than his German opponent. Many skilled Polish pilots escaped afterwards to the United Kingdom and were deployed by the RAF during the Battle of Britain. Fighting from British bases, Polish pilots were also, on average, the most successful in shooting down German planes [8].
Und schliesslich unter Notes:
Various sources contradict each other so the figures quoted above should only be taken as a rough indication of losses. The most common range brackets for casualties are: Polish casualties—65,000 to 66,300 KIA, 134,000 WIA; German KIA—8,082 to 16,343, with MIA from 5,029 to 320, total KIA and WIA given at 45,000. The discrepancy in German casualties can be attributed to he fact that some German statistics still listed soldiers as missing decades after the war. Today the most common and accepted number for German KIA casualties is 16,343. Soviet losses are estimated at 737-1,475 killed and missing, and 1,859-2,383 wounded. The often cited figure of 420,000 Polish prisoners of war represents only those captured by the Germans, as Soviets captured about 250,000 Polish POWs themselves, making the total number of Polish POWs about 660,000–690,000. Equipment losses are given as 236 German tanks and approximately 1,000 other vehicles to 132 Polish tanks and 300 other vehicles, 107–141 German planes to 327 Polish planes (118 fighters) (Polish PWN Encyclopedia gives number of 700 planes lost), 1 German small minelayer to 1 Polish destroyer ("Wicher"), 1 minelayer ("Gryf") and several support craft. Soviets lost approximately 42 tanks in combat while hundreds more suffered technical failures.
Die Literaturangabe bei Wiki ist nicht so klein, lässt daher durchaus darauf schliessen dass der Verfasser des Artikels sich durchaus mit der Materie auskennt.
Haben wir zufällig Experten über den Polenfeldzug hier?
Waren die deutschen Verluste wirklich so groß?
Was ich bisher wusste war dass in Warschau einige Panzer die zu früh Warschau nehmen wollten dort eine heftige Niederlage erlitten und von der polnischen Pak besiegt wurden.
Mit der Luftwaffe das war mir aber bisher neu. Die Deutschen hatten ja die Messerschmitt BF 109 bereits die den polnischen Jägern denke ich so überlegen war dass auch ein Veteran schwer gewinnt.
Wie sind die ganzen Flugzeugverluste da zu stande gekommen? Oder waren das hauptsächlich abgeschossene deutsche Stukas? Weiss jemand hierzu genaue Zahlen?
Liegt Wikipedia und mein Freund im Channel falsch oder war der Polenfeldzug tatsächlich recht hart und verglichen mit dem Frankreichfeldzug sogar härter als dieser?
Im Geschichtsunterricht haben wir gelernt dass der Polenfeldzug ein Witz war und in etlichen Büchern usw. haben wir dies ebenso gelesen.
Wir bitten um Aufklärung welche der 2 Varianten näher an der Wahrheit ist :).
Weder ich noch meine amerikanischen Kollegen wollten es erst glauben als einer sagte:
"German tank losses included 217 destroyed and the Luftwaffe lost 285 planes destroyed and 279 damaged beyond repair - about 25% of all German planes in September 1939. "
Wikipedia schreibt aber auch ähnliches:
About 65,000 Polish troops were killed and 680,000 were captured by the Germans (420,000) or the Soviets (240,000). Up to 120,000 Polish troops withdrew to neutral Romania (through the Romanian Bridgehead) and Hungary and 20,000 to Latvia and Lithuania, with the majority eventually making their way to France or Britain. Most of the Polish Navy succeeded in evacuating to Britain as well. German personnel losses were smaller (~16,000 KIA), but the loss of over ~30% of armored vehicles during the campaign was one of the reasons the plans for an immediate attack west were discarded.
Unter Mythen:
The Polish air force was destroyed on the ground in the first days of the war: The Polish Air Force, though numerically inferior and lacking modern fighters, was not destroyed on the ground because combat units had been moved from air bases to small camouflaged airfields shortly before the war. Only a number of trainers and auxiliary aircraft were destroyed on the ground on airfields. The Polish Air Force remained active in the first two weeks of the campaign, causing serious harm to the Luftwaffe as the average Polish pilot was much better trained than his German opponent. Many skilled Polish pilots escaped afterwards to the United Kingdom and were deployed by the RAF during the Battle of Britain. Fighting from British bases, Polish pilots were also, on average, the most successful in shooting down German planes [8].
Und schliesslich unter Notes:
Various sources contradict each other so the figures quoted above should only be taken as a rough indication of losses. The most common range brackets for casualties are: Polish casualties—65,000 to 66,300 KIA, 134,000 WIA; German KIA—8,082 to 16,343, with MIA from 5,029 to 320, total KIA and WIA given at 45,000. The discrepancy in German casualties can be attributed to he fact that some German statistics still listed soldiers as missing decades after the war. Today the most common and accepted number for German KIA casualties is 16,343. Soviet losses are estimated at 737-1,475 killed and missing, and 1,859-2,383 wounded. The often cited figure of 420,000 Polish prisoners of war represents only those captured by the Germans, as Soviets captured about 250,000 Polish POWs themselves, making the total number of Polish POWs about 660,000–690,000. Equipment losses are given as 236 German tanks and approximately 1,000 other vehicles to 132 Polish tanks and 300 other vehicles, 107–141 German planes to 327 Polish planes (118 fighters) (Polish PWN Encyclopedia gives number of 700 planes lost), 1 German small minelayer to 1 Polish destroyer ("Wicher"), 1 minelayer ("Gryf") and several support craft. Soviets lost approximately 42 tanks in combat while hundreds more suffered technical failures.
Die Literaturangabe bei Wiki ist nicht so klein, lässt daher durchaus darauf schliessen dass der Verfasser des Artikels sich durchaus mit der Materie auskennt.
Haben wir zufällig Experten über den Polenfeldzug hier?
Waren die deutschen Verluste wirklich so groß?
Was ich bisher wusste war dass in Warschau einige Panzer die zu früh Warschau nehmen wollten dort eine heftige Niederlage erlitten und von der polnischen Pak besiegt wurden.
Mit der Luftwaffe das war mir aber bisher neu. Die Deutschen hatten ja die Messerschmitt BF 109 bereits die den polnischen Jägern denke ich so überlegen war dass auch ein Veteran schwer gewinnt.
Wie sind die ganzen Flugzeugverluste da zu stande gekommen? Oder waren das hauptsächlich abgeschossene deutsche Stukas? Weiss jemand hierzu genaue Zahlen?
Liegt Wikipedia und mein Freund im Channel falsch oder war der Polenfeldzug tatsächlich recht hart und verglichen mit dem Frankreichfeldzug sogar härter als dieser?
Im Geschichtsunterricht haben wir gelernt dass der Polenfeldzug ein Witz war und in etlichen Büchern usw. haben wir dies ebenso gelesen.
Wir bitten um Aufklärung welche der 2 Varianten näher an der Wahrheit ist :).